WHAT IS COMMAND/COMMUNICATIONS SYSTEMS USED FOR?  IT SHOWS UP IN THE  CHART ON PAGE 16 FOR CAPACITY COSTS.

Kind of a mystery system, but we play that the Combat Group command vehicle must have a com/com system.

Brian Cantwell

It's the system through which you get to tell the bits of metal (figures) to move, shoot, etc.

If you play a game and your opponent doesn't have one, you get to move, shoot, etc. he gets to go to the bar to buy the victory drink he owes you. Read the bit in the rules about losing your C&C vehicle, cannot remember the page number.

Mark Maudley

P.S. Consider it to be the beer carrier. I think it has a similar effect if  you lose it. 

Mark Maudley

All is not completely lost if your Command vehicle goes down, but its definitely not good.  If the game is close, you are in trouble, but you can (I've done it) pull out a win using auxiliary command.  Note that I do not remember any place in the rules where it states that the command vehicle must carry the command and communications package to be a command vehicle.  Indeed, in the introduction it describes the command unit as a vehicle or infantry unit.  I also believe that this extra commo gear makes up the command element, and play so.  I can see having a specialist infantry team as the command unit.  The element carries lots of radio gear and personal weapons only.  Cost equal rifle + 75.

Brian Cantwell

The idea of sticking all that stuff on a grunt worries me. Artillery fire comes to mind.

My favorite place to stick it is in a fast tracked or wheeled, size 2 vehicle way, way back. I usually stick it with my 2 x "smoke generating" light artillery and a LAD.

Mark Maudley

I generally put my command into a well protected class 3 with an ADS vehicle and either a pair of missile tanks or a pair of anti-armor missile teams in IFVs to protect against rear area raids by pesky enemy VTOLs etc...

Brian Cantwell

The Command vehicles are better at calling Artillery. I also give a squadron containing a command vehicle a better moral and training value than the bulk of the force.

Adam Delafield

IS THERE A REASON TO TAKE MORE THAN 1 APSW?

Being close assaulted by power armor comes to mind!  Infantry can be quite hard for vehicles to kill, so if you have extra capacity, an extra APSW is pretty useful.

Brian Cantwell

I didn't know you could fire more than one in an activation.  Where is that stated?

Andy Skinner

I assumed that these would be treated as any other multiple gun mount i.e. you could fire all of the barrels at one target.  This does not allow you to mow down more infantry, just increases the likelihood of getting the one you are firing at.

Brian Cantwell

You bet your life there is. Infantry are very hard to kill. Drawing 2 sets of 3 chits is much more likely to do the job than one set of three.

Adam Delafield

WHAT ARE INFANTRY CHIT VALIDITIES FOR VEHICLE TARGETS?

Did you ask Jon about infantry chit validities for vehicle targets?  You said official rules were: used number of chits and ranges from p. 36, chit validities from chart on p. 29.  Alternative was same, but chit validities from Infantry Firefight, as top of p. 36 says.  I kinda like this.  I've found out that a third option was supported by Brian Cantwell, and that is using numbers of chits and chit validities from Infantry Firefights.  I know I can use what I like best, just curious if you guys talked it over.

Andy Skinner

Yes, I spoke to Jon on this one. Having considered things, we have agreed that the text at the top of p.36 is in error, delete the words "Damage Validity and" thus it should read: "(Note that in all the above cases, the point totals necessary to kill infantry elements are the same as for INFANTRY FIREFIGHTS.)"

In other words you should use the chit validities from p.29.

Mike Elliott

If you use the validities on pg. 29, how do you provide infantry a bonus for being in cover or dug in?  The rules on page 36 did this by altering the damage validities.   Except for artillery attacks, cover modifiers are not included in this chart, and infantry attacks cannot use the same modifiers as against vehicles since no dice are rolled.

Brian Cantwell

You DON'T provide infantry a bonus for being in cover or dug in vs. vehicle fire (except in the case of artillery fire). They are hard enough to hit as it is (Yellow chits only) so its not really necessary.

Mike Elliott

THE CAPACITY CHART SAYS THAT ARTILLERY WEAPONS TAKE UP CLASS X 3 CAPACITY  POINTS.  ARTILLERY WEAPONS ARE CLASSED LIGHT, MEDIUM, AND HEAVY.  DO THOSE  CLASSES HAVE NUMERICAL VALUES OF 1, 2, AND 3?  IS THAT IN THE RULES?

The Artillery weapons have numerical classes of 2, 4, and 6.  The class-6 weapon is the only exception to the rule that "the maximum size that weapons systems can be is 5."  They're described in the rules section (I forget which page) that define how to design vehicles (near the front of the book).

Rick Rutherford

IF YOU ATTACH AN ARTILLERY OBSERVER TO AN INFANTRY UNIT, DOES THAT UNIT BECOME A SPECIALIST ELEMENT. REFER ARTILLERY SECTION ON PAGE 52 VS INFANTRY POINTS COSTS ON PAGE 53 (NOTE SPECIALIST ELEMENTS LOSE THEIR INTEGRAL FIREPOWER, P33)?

I think you are slightly confused about the terms "element" and "unit". A unit consists of a number of elements (i.e. an individual infantry base). Thus for example you could have a unit that consists of four rifle elements. If you then add an Artillery Observer element to the _unit_, the only element that is a specialist element is the Artillery Observer, the other four elements are still (and always will be) normal rifle elements. An individual element cannot be both an Artillery Observer _and_ a rifle element (or any other specialist element come to that) at the same time.

Mike Elliott

THE SAMPLE VEHICLES SEEM TO BE TOO EXPENSIVE?

I don't know how you calculated the samples.  Hmm, I don't remember if I went over the samples, either, so I won't assume they're correct.  I think you are right that a restricted arc turret does not give you a point bonus--you just do it to match a particular model.  But when designing a conversion for the Space Marine Land Raider, which has one gun on each side, in kind of awkward places, I gave it a break on pricing  here.  I've seen other people do the same thing.  There are places where you can make obvious interpolations in pricing.  For example, I made a Medium Tracked mobility, which is just like slow and fast, but the point value and speed in inches are halfway in between.

Andy Skinner

CAN VTOLS/AEROSPACE VEHICLES "MOVE & SHOOT" REMEMBER FIXED MOUNTS CANNOT "MOVE AND SHOOT"?

A VTOL with fixed mount (or any other vehicle with a fixed mount) fire BEFORE moving (see p11 ARCS OF FIRE) i.e. they can "shoot and move", but not "move and shoot". Aerospace vehicles have a separate special activation sequence (see p41).

Mike Elliott

CAN YOU MOVE AFTER A POPUP ATTACK. IF SO, HOW FAR?

No.

Mike Elliott

WHY IS IT THAT VTOL TRANSPORT, MOVE 24 IS THE SAME PRICE AS VTOL  COMBAT, MOVE 30?

The VTOL movement capability costs the same regardless of whether the VTOL is a transport or attack type. The (slight) difference in movement rate is because an attack VTOL will have better aerodynamics than a bulky transport VTOL so has a slight edge in speed.

Mike Elliott

IS A VEHICLE OF ARMOUR 1 CONSIDERED TO BE UNARMOURED FROM THE SIDE AND REAR. THUS BEING ABLE TO BE KILLED AT BY INFANTRY FIRE (ARMOUR VALUE 0  SIDE/REAR)?

Yes, except that VTOLs and aerospace craft could be Armour 1 all round (see p14 AIR VEHICLE DESIGN).

Mike Elliott

IS THERE ANY RULE THAT SAYS THAT YOU CANNOT HAVE ABLATIVE OR REACTIVE ARMOUR ON A VEHICLE OF ARMOUR VALUE 0 (YOU WOULD PAY 10% OF SVP TO  CALCULATE BVP) ?

No.

Mike Elliott

You can have zero armour on your vehicle (i.e. Class 1 vehicles from the side).  In such a case a valid 0 chit will damage the vehicle, but a wrong color 0 chit will not.

John McClain

CAN INFANTRY ASSAULT TANKS?

Sure.  We play with 6-10 elements + vehicles in an infantry unit, so this is a bad thing for most tank units.  Close Assaulting VTOLs in low or high mode is a bit silly, however.

John Card II

CAN TANKS ASSAULT INFANTRY?

If they _really_ wanted to, I suppose so.  It would need to be a really specialized sort of tank, or a heavy advantage in numbers on my side to make me want to.  Mechanized infantry units will certainly bring along their vehicles in some cases, for the added firepower, so other vehicles might also join in.
See quote on p.35 that starts with "Vehicles involved in Close Assaults (on _either_ side)" [again emphasis is mine] for a suggestion that vehicles can Close Assault.  But it's usually a much better idea to hang back at range 12", and fire APSWs. We also play that APFC can be used each round of Close Assault, but only if the side using them have no infantry involved.

John Card II

CAN TROOPS BEING CLOSE ASSAULTED SHOOT THE ATTACKERS ON THE WAY IN?

This would be "Opportunity Fire", p.20, no?  And if you've already taken your action with that unit too bad...

John Card II

That's what the infantry is for!  Most vehicles are better off firing at range, and letting the supporting infantry (you _did_ bring along some supporting infantry, didn't you?) hold off the rampaging hordes of enemy ground pounders.

John Card II

ON PAGE 20, IT SAYS THAT A UNIT MAY USE OPPORTUNITY FIRE AGAINST ANOTHER UNIT IF IT IS ABLE TO ENGAGE THE MOVING UNIT WITH DIRECT-FIRE WEAPONRY.  DOES THAT INCLUDE GMS?

Yes, GMS systems can engage a moving unit as Opportunity Fire.

Mike Elliott

HOW SHOULD I DEFINE BIKE MOUNTED INFANTRY?

I'd treat bike mounted infantry exactly as cavalry, but maybe with slightly different movement (for instance use Hi-Mob wheeled terrain penalties instead of infantry.)  These guys are going fight as grenadiers, using their bikes to get where they need to be then dismounting to fight.

Brian Cantwell

The bikes referred to are the motorcycle troops from the GW Epic plastic boxes (both Imperial Guard and marines).  I had envisioned Size 1 vehicles to be "combat dunebuggies" or VW beetle missile cars, so I classified them as an infantry movement type.  They are considered to be infantry riding dirtbikes (NOT Harley-Davidsons) with carbines and buzzbombs (IAVRs) for armament.
They mostly move as hi-mob wheeled, but can move slowly in woods and urban (they lug their bikes with them)  I have also come up with jump infantry, teleporting infantry, and increased the speed of cavalry to 6".  If anyone would like my house rules, I'd be happy to send them to you.  Just drop me a line.

Steve Gibson

I would say that motorcycles should be treated more like cavalry than like small (Size 1) vehicles. I haven't yet, but will be for the Slammers, based motorcycles other than for Space Marine. I intend to put two to a base, and treat them as an appropriately armed infantry team. I do not put much stock in guns mounted on motorcycles (except sidecars which has been done) so the bike adds no firepower. The mounted team will have a high movement rating but will be vulnerable to area weapons, including MGs/APSWs. While dismounted they will function as the appropriate infantry team but cannot stray from the bikes.

I suspect that others (SGibson) have done point costs for motorcycles.

Mike Llaneza

IF PLAYING AN OBJECTIVE-CAPTURING SCENARIO, CAN A VTOL CAPTURE AN OBJECTIVE?

This came up in our last game, an attack-defense scenario as per the DS II rulebook.  After numerous hours of play, the game had been very close and when we decided that getting some sleep might be a good plan, we both claimed eventual victory.  I had smashed the bulk of my opponents army and had quite a few missile armed and power infantry teams (but no vehicles) alive in their holes.  My opponent had a few elements of his laser support vehicles (about to be close assaulted by my power armor) and one unit of power armor in VTOLs.  He claimed that his mobility advantage meant that he could fly around and claim all of the objectives.  I claimed that he had to stop and put the grunts out to claim them, giving me ample opportunity to blast his remaining forces. The debate rages on, hopefully to be laid to rest soon as we play another game.

Brian Cantwell

For an objective to be captured it must be moved over by a ground unit or a VTOL must land on it and remain on it. If a VTOL has troops aboard then these can be left on the objective when the VTOL takes off. See p17 SEQUENCE OF PLAY - PRELIMINARIES, paragraph 4. (Air units include VTOLs). 

Mike Elliott

WHEN IS A SIZE 1 VEHICLE NOT A SIZE 1 VEHICLE?

The simple answer to this question is: Anything that provides personal mobility to a single man _and does not mount any additional weapons_ is NOT a vehicle. Thus a single seat motorbike is not a vehicle but a 2 seater would be.. or a bike with a sidecar... but a single seat bike _mounting an APSW_ IS a vehicle.... get the idea?

Mike Elliott

DOES FIRE (BURNING THINGS) AFFECT INFANTRY.? I CANNOT FIND ANYTHING IN THE RULES ABOUT FIRE EXCEPT THAT IT PRODUCES 6" OF SMOKE

No, there are no rules for the effects of fire (combustion) on infantry. However, I am sure it is well within your capabilities to write one or two and post them here....

Mike Elliott

IS THE RULE ABOUT COMBAT WALKERS RUNNING THE SAME AS EASY TERRAIN FOR VEHICLES IN EVERY WAY?  IN OTHER WORDS, COULD ALL THE NORMAL TERRAIN FOR COMBAT WALKERS BE EASY AND NOT HAVE A SPECIAL RUN MOVE?  IF NOT, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE? 

No, it's not the same.
A GEV can move through NORMAL (easy) terrain at "double" speed and still fire.
If a combat walker RUNS, it may not fire.  So movement at double speed for a walker precludes fire, unlike other vehicles in EASY terrain.

Mike Elliott

Whoa - I don't think so.

We played that way in the first game we played (GEV moving "EASY" and firing), however, in the post mortem, we found in the rules that taking advantage of "EASY" movement category prevents you from firing that turn.

John Phelps

I asked a question before about whether the RUN that combat walkers can do was different from the EASY terrain type.  Someone thought that they were different because the RUN move prevents the walker from firing, but so does EASY.  I think the difference is that RUN only prevents you from firing, but the doubling with EASY prevents firing, observing, etc., and is not allowed with an Under Fire marker.  On the other hand, the part on page 27 about RUN says NORMAL terrain is treated as EASY, which might mean the restrictions on EASY (including not being able to fire) apply.  I'm making a reference sheet, and would like to be able to group things together as best as I can. If RUN is just like EASY, then I'd like to call NORMAL terrain EASY for combat walkers.

Andy Skinner

Don't know about that one. I guess it just means that Transport walkers treat the area as Normal, but Combat walkers treat it as easy. (So you don't have to grade all terrain separately for both types).

Adam Delafield

You think that the RUN for combat walkers is the same as EASY terrain for non-walkers, and that the only reason that RUN is defined as such was to have the same difficulty levels for terrain as transport walkers?  Just checking.  I think it would have been easier to say those terrain types were EASY for combat walkers and NORMAL for transport walkers.  I'd still like to know if there is a difference--is the RUN subject to all the restrictions that EASY is, or just to not firing?  I currently plan to call it the same thing.

Andy Skinner

GAME END - SAYS IT CAN BE CALLED AT ANY TIME.  DOES THAT REALLY MEAN "AT ANY TIME DURING THE TURN/GAME", OR DO YOU HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL TURN END TO DECLARE?

We decided the latter, so as to give the enemy a chance to retake the objective.

John Phelps

One of the things I'd like to see is an overall preservation level for the battle group.  For example, every time a unit is destroyed, all other units must take a morale check at the end of the game turn.  I'd recommend this be at +0 (+1 per additional unit destroyed that turn), and the command vehicle's command rating can modify this.  So, if you have a poor overall commander, your units will erode as your force does, and you may have units that have not been engaged yet that are cracking simply by hearing all the other units get eliminated.   Yes, this is a series of additional checks, but it is only done at the game turn end, and would only be one check (modified by however many units were eliminated).

John Phelps

We have also noticed that under the standard victory conditions, one shot (non-campaign) games go on until only a few vehicles (and usually a few stranded infantry) are left on the field. This also corresponded to game lengths sufficient to enrage our wives for a week.  We have started placing additional restrictions on game length by declaring "acceptable casualty levels" for each force.  These vary from 50%-100% depending on the scenario.  When a combat group loses the listed percentage of its initial on table units, it must retreat (or sometimes we say that the force must then attempt to dig in and hold what it has won, i.e. it may make no further advances toward the enemy's table edge.)  A unit is lost when 50% of its elements are out of the battle (any result except damaged).  In this type of situation, two element units can be a detriment.  The only other drawback to two element units is that your opponent will have so many fewer units, that he will be able to pass a lot, possibly allowing him to take more decisive action while you move your units up piecemeal.

Brian Cantwell

HOW DO YOU DETERMINE THE CREW SIZE FOR VEHICLES SINCE THAT IS NEEDED WHEN DETERMINING THE CAPACITY NEEDED FOR TRANSPORT SHIPS?

There are no hard and fast rules for the number of crew in a DS II vehicle, However, the following guidelines should be sufficient for most purposes:

A DIRTSIDE II vehicle should have the following crew - a commander (who may double as a gunner), a driver, a gunner for each weapon and at least one loader for each large weapon (say Size 3 up). You could argue that some weapon systems may have auto-loaders (like present day Russian MBTs) but that's up to you. Also bear in mind that a Size 1 vehicle is essentially a "jeep" like vehicle with room for up to 4 men.

Mike Elliott

WHEN FIRING GMS/* VS VEHICLES, THE RULES SEEM TO INDICATE ONLY ADS/PDS/ECM SYSTEMS ARE USED FOR DEFENSE (AS IN A EFFECTIVE/REAL SIGNATURE 1 VEHICLE IS AS EASY TO HIT AS AN EFFECTIVE/REAL SIGNATURE 5 VEHICLE).  IF THAT IS THE CASE - HOW ABOUT TERRAIN EFFECTS?

Missiles seek their targets and fly round/through terrain. They are also considered to be so accurate that the only defence is to shoot them down or confuse them. (or carry a tonne and a half of Ablative). 

Adam Delafield

I have always thought of the missiles as requiring a direct LOS since the target vehicle is designating the target for the missile.  The missiles may be fire-and-forget, but no mention is made of the missiles being able to ID their own targets, or that others may designate targets for a hidden missile launcher (although this would be a nice system), so I assume that the vehicle must have LOS to the target to fire a GMS.

Brian Cantwell

Doesn't that make the points system way out of whack? After all for 40pts a GMS/L can hit anything within 48" using a d10 whereas basic PDS runs 30pts for each vehicle you want to protect?

Drue Tucker

No not really. I see no reason why the points for attack and defence should balance. It makes much more sense if the attack is cheaper. This is somewhat different from the Aircraft/Air defence discussion, as Air 'Defence' is designed to attack fighters. A vehicle is always going to
be worth more points than a weapon that can destroy it.

ECM is cheaper (if memory serves) than PDS, and it doesn't take up capacity either. ECM, not PDS, should be your main defence against missiles.

The chief advantage of missiles is that they are accurate. Other weapons are much better at punching through armour.

Adam Delafield

Empirically, I think that the costs for PDS are pretty good.  Using your math, the PDS can stop any number of missile fired at it each round, so the 60 points for a PDS (sup) is easily worth more than one GMS/L (sup). The costs for most systems seem to have worked out well in our games. 
Cost of air defense has caused some wrinkled brows, and reactive armor is so cheap that no almost no vehicle doesn't include it, but these are the only factors I have noticed in the point system.

Brian Cantwell

After having a 5 stand platoon of Space Marine GMS/L troops hold the middle ground and whack anything that moves, I would tend to agree with Drue.  I don't think the game system should require you to have good ECM or Pt. Defence to survive.  Even the most "high tech" weapon in DS2, the DFFG, has a short range and takes up a lot of space, even though most things getting close will die (except infantry, who are remarkably difficult to kill).  A GMS/H (Superior) takes four spaces and only costs 60 pts., and has a range of  48" and pulls FIVE chits.  That sixty point weapon can make scrap iron out of  much more than 60 pts. of armor, when mounted on a SZ 1 combat dunebuggy.

Steve Gibson

As long as you are using the full range of technologies available in the game, there is no reason to assume a vehicle will have any chance to survive on the battlefield without an adequate ECM suite.  If you would like to lessen the requirements for ECM/PDS, I suggest that you play a lower tech campaign where infantry GMS/L systems must use basic guidance (I bet those Space Marines were using superior GMS/L).  If your playing with the full range of technologies, you should rethink any move to 
advance into the face of 5 GMS/L infantry without a well defended vehicle.  A nice 30 pt smoke screen in front of those infantry ought to allow you to get some assault troops in or to bypass them.  If your enemy goes very heavy with missile systems, go heavy with anti-missile to keep your main guns alive.  In our last game, I was dug-in and defending, and therefore relied heavily on missile armed infantry.  While I was able to nuke a bunch of my opponents vehicles, they were mostly scouts or rather rash charges he made against a part of the line.  He carried plenty of defenses, and used two ADVs (these we reduced the price of, see my previous post on air defense).  I killed number of his vehicles with my 
tank destroyers, air support, and mines.  One thing that is crucial is the different reactions of vehicles and infantry to reduced morale. Dismounted infantry are best dealt with by a couple of attacks to reduce morale followed by an infantry charge.  If your GMS/L infantry are not protected by plenty of rifle or APSW infantry, they are very vulnerable to a attacks by power armor moving on foot while the vehicles stay out of LOS.

Brian Cantwell

DOES URBAN GO ALONG WITH DUG-IN FOR CLOSE ASSAULT, AS IT DOES WITH FIREFIGHTS?

Yes.

Mike Elliott

IS IT TRUE THAT INFANTRY CHARGING INTO CLOSE ASSAULT CAN MOVE UP TO 6" IF THE DEFENDER FALLS BACK (4" FOR CHARGE & 2" FOR OCCUPYING DEFENDERS' POSITIONS)?  SINCE A UNIT ONLY FALLS BACK 2", A FOLLOW-THROUGH WILL USUALLY BRING THE ATTACKER INTO CONTACT WITH THE DEFENDER, POSSIBLY INSTIGATING ANOTHER CLOSE ASSAULT.  DOES THIS ALLOW MULTIPLE FOLLOW-THROUGHS, IN EFFECT, ALLOWING THE ATTACKER TO CONTINUE TO CHASE DOWN THE DEFENDER & MOVE WAY MORE THAN THE INFANTRY ALLOTMENT OF 2"?

Yes, if you get 'em on the run, try and keep 'em running (see p35)....

Mike Elliott

IF A UNIT HAS BEEN FORCED TO FALL BACK, ARE THERE ANY PENALTIES TO THEIR CLOSE ASSAULT IF THE ATTACKER ASSAULTS THEM AGAIN?

See p34, no, but the effect of them failing the Confidence Test will probably be more serious the second time.

Mike Elliott

DOES THE DEFENDER HAVE TO MAKE A MORALE TEST FOR EACH UNIT ATTACKING IT IN A COMBINED ASSAULT, OR DOES IT MAKE 1 TEST AT EACH STAGE IN RESPONSE TO THE COMBINED ATTACK?

According to Jon T. The defender only makes 1 test at each stage.

Mike Elliott

WHAT WOULD BE A GOOD STRATEGY FOR DESIGNING LETS SAY A LASER TOWER, CLASS FOUR.  WOULD YOU STILL NEED TO BUY THE EXPENSIVE POWER PLANT EVEN THOUGH IT WON'T MOVE?  OR HOW ABOUT FOR A REGULAR BUNKER THAT WOULD HOLD TWO INFANTRY ELEMENTS?

Referring to DSII p46, isolated buildings (such as towers and bunkers) are treated as immobile vehicles as far as design is concerned (it doesn't actually say it, but it is implied). Just omit the cost of the mobility system. You'll still need a power plant though to provide power for your weapons systems. 

Mike Elliott

CAN ONLY ADS & LAD FIRE AT AEROSPACE FIGHTERS?

That's how I read the rules.  So, if the opponent has neither of those, then the fighter can fill the sky with fire & the enemy's fatigues with shite (like mine did taking out a 5 tank Class-3 unit, an Arty FO & 1/2 a Battery).

Aron Clark

Yes, only LAD and ADS can fire at Aerospace! If the other guy might have Aerospace assets, better take along some Air Defence or suffer the consequences!!

Mike Elliott

IF A GREEN UNIT GETS A PANIC MARKER & BECOMES BROKEN OR ROUTED, WHICH DO THEY DO 1ST, REMOVE THE PANIC MARKER, OR MOVE TO COVER?

See pp22-23. It depends on the order of events. If a unit receives a PANIC marker it cannot take any other action until the PANIC marker is removed (which takes an activation). However, a unit that fails a Confidence Test must apply the appropriate results immediately. This does NOT use an activation. i.e. A unit with a PANIC marker that then fails a Confidence Test must move to cover (or whatever) immediately.

Mike Elliott

What if the unit is more 1 move from cover, i.e. the unit makes a move immediately, but during the next turn, it's still not in cover & still has a Panic marker?  (Sorry if this sounds a bit pedantic.)

Nils A Hedglin

See p.22. A unit that is Broken must withdraw to cover. This may takes more than one turn. If there is no cover available, then it may well end up withdrawing off the table.

Mike Elliott

CAN YOU RALLY INFANTRY UNITS WHICH HAVE BEEN BROKEN? DOES THE MANDATORY RETREAT CONSTITUTE THE UNITS ACTION AND THEREFORE NOT ALLOW THEM TO MAKE A RALLY ATTEMPT?

See p24 RALLYING UNITS section. The unit does not need to remain stationary in order to rally. Mandatory retreats do not constitute the units action, but a unit that makes a mandatory retreat cannot move in any other way.

Mike Elliott

DOES A FIRER SYSTEMS DOWN AFFECT ARTILLERY, VTOLS OR AEROSPACE FIGHTERS?

Yes. See p30. Firer Systems Down chits affect any vehicle that fires and thus draws chits for fire effect. The only units not affected are infantry.

Mike Elliott

IF GREEN ARTILLERY IS FIRED ON & GETS A PANIC MARKER BETWEEN A FIRE MISSION BEING CALLED & BEING DELIVERED, THEN DOES THE ARTILLERY HAVE TO REMOVE THE PANIC MARKER & THEREFORE UNABLE TO DELIVER THE MISSION (& THEREFORE THE ROUNDS AREN'T USED)?

Yes. The PANIC marker must be removed, so the mission is not fired (tough!!).

Mike Elliott

WHAT ARE THE ADVANTAGES/DISADVANTAGES OF ON OR OFF TABLE ARTILLERY.?

On-Table Artillery
May FIRE and then MOVE in one activation ("shoot and scoot"), thus giving it an advantage against CBR.
It is recommended that only RAM mortars are used on-table.

Off-Table Artillery
May _not_ fire and move in the same activation. I find the best place to put "off-table" arty is along the edge of the table. They should be declared to be off-table at the start of the game. They can then be moved along the edge as required. In reality, of course, they are several miles behind the table. In scale (and in DSII, 1 mile is about 16ins) they would be in the next room or even out in the street!

This makes off-table arty more vulnerable to CBR (since they can't "shoot and scoot"). OTOH, on-table arty can "shoot and scoot" to counter CBR but in turn are vulnerable to normal spotted arty fire and attacks from other enemy forces (such as aerospace strikes). The rules don't specify how far, but sensibly it should be far enough to get out from under a CB barrage aimed at their last known position.

Therefore, the way to deal with on-table artillery is NOT with counter battery fire, but with any other type of attack you choose. Off-table artillery can ONLY be attacked with counter battery fire and are penalised for not moving. To avoid this they can thus only fire on alternate activations.

If you think about it, both on and off-table artillery are penalised (and made more vulnerable as targets) for not moving, _but in slightly different ways_. In effect, off-table arty can actually shoot and scoot but take two activations to do so.

Mike Elliott

IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU CAN'T DESTROY BUILDINGS IN AN URBAN AREA, ONLY ISOLATED BUILDINGS CAN BE FIRED AT.  IF THIS IS SO, THEN INFANTRY IN URBAN AREAS CAN NEVER HAVE THEIR COVER REDUCED, CORRECT?

No, artillery fire is effective against Urban Areas, see pp46-47, (though this effectively allows defending infantry to be DUG IN by occupying rubble). However, it is true that the only effective way of dealing with infantry defending an urban area is to get your own grunts out of their cozy APCs and go in there with guns blazing....

You can still target the infantry in the Urban Area though with artillery fire (as for infantry in woods). So it might be better to fire at the infantry rather than the Urban Area they are in....

Mike Elliott

I'm still a bit confused.  I see in "Combat in Urban Areas" that you can't direct fire inside an Urban Area.  But can a unit outside the Urban Area direct fire against an Urban Area in order to bring the buildings down around the infantry's ears?  Or more to the point, what can fire from outside an Urban Area at infantry/vehicles within an Urban Area to either destroy the target or destroy the buildings around the target in order to affect the target?  Also, does infantry in a building count as Soft Cover or Dug-In?

Nils A Hedglin

Urban Areas are treated very much like woods (see p46). The major difference is that vehicles can move inside Urban Areas. An Urban Area is therefore counted as SOFT COVER when infantry/vehicles at its edge are fired at by enemy outside it.

You can't free at the Urban Area itself except by artillery (see p46) If this is successful it has the effect of reducing a part of the UA to rubble, which allows infantry to count as DUG-IN.

Let's face it, you're going to have to send in the grunts to get 'em out....

Mike Elliott

IF INFANTRY ARE IN A BUILDING THAT IS DESTROYED, WHAT KIND OF DAMAGE DO THEY TAKE?

Treat infantry in isolated buildings as you would for infantry in disabled or damaged vehicles - if the building is disabled or damaged. If the building is destroyed, then the infantry are destroyed as well.

Mike Elliott

IN THE SECTION ON VEHICLES FIRING AGAINST INFANTRY (P.36), DOES THE PARAGRAPH AFTER THE SLAM SECTION, STARTING WITH "AT MEDIUM & LONG RANGES" APPLY ONLY TO SLAMS OR ALL WEAPONS?

Yes, it only applies to SLAMs.

Mike Elliott

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HULL DOWN & TURRET DOWN?

Hull Down is where the hull of a vehicle is behind cover, but the turret is exposed.
Turret Down is where both the hull and the turret of a vehicle are behind cover. This usually means that the vehicle cannot fire (unless it is a VTOL that can execute a Pop-Up). Such a position is often used for observation purposes.

Mike Elliott

I saw somewhere in the rules something like this: "blah blah blah SOFT COVER (i.e. armor hulled down)".  I can't find it now & don't remember what section it was in.  It sounds like hull down armor is being classified as Soft Cover when there's a Hull Down modifier. Please explain.

Nils A Hedglin

You are referring to the Cover and Concealment section on p20. I agree the text here is not clear (sorry, blame Jon T.!!). The way I play it is that a vehicle in a wood edge or urban area is in Soft Cover. A vehicle in a prepared defensive position (such as a revetted emplacement) can claim to be Hull Down. A vehicle behind a hill top or ridge line can claim to be either Hull Down or Turret Down. It cannot fire from a Turret Down position unless it is a VTOL that executes a Pop-Up.

Mike Elliott

WHEN ARE "UNDER FIRE" MARKERS REMOVED?

See p19, ` top of page it says: "Once the whole unit has...finished its COMBAT SEQUENCE...remove any UNDER FIRE markers".

Mike Elliott

WHAT IS THE "THREAT LEVEL" AT WHICH VEHICLES TEST WHEN UNDER FIRE, THE RULEBOOK STATES THREAT LEVEL +1 AND +0???

Ah, a good question! Jon and I discussed this. On p23 the Threat Level table shows "vehicles under fire when attempting to move, +1" On p24 in the "UNDER FIRE" MARKERS section it says "and +0 for vehicles and infantry still in vehicle transport". OOps!! 

ALL PLEASE NOTE:
Herewith errata #2: on p24, in the "UNDER FIRE" MARKERS section, DELETE "+0 for". that is, the Threat Level for being under fire is always +1.

Mike Elliott

CAN VTOLS IN HIGH MODE SPOT FOR ARTILLERY? CAN VTOLS IN LOW MODE SPOT FOR ARTILLERY?
CAN VTOLS THAT HAVE LANDED SPOT FOR ARTILLERY?

Yes, to all these provided you have paid for an artillery observer element in the vehicle (50 points). 

Mike Elliott

WHAT HAPPENS TO A VTOL THAT RECEIVES A "FIRER SYSTEMS DOWN" CHIT? DOES IT CRASH?  IS IT UNAFFECTED?

A "Firer Systems Down" chit affects a VTOL in the same way as it does any other vehicle (i.e. no Combat Actions) see p.30.

Mike Elliott

IS THERE ANY WAY TO ATTACK HIGH MODE VTOLS OR AEROSPACE FIGHTERS OTHER THAN ADAS OR LAD? CAN TWO VTOLS IN HIGH MODE ATTACK EACH OTHER?

The rules don't explicitly say, but I see no reason why not (think "helicopter duel"). VTOLs in high mode cannot attack aerospace craft though (the f******ers move too d*** fast).

Mike Elliott

Hmm, this is contrary to what I read in the rules, but Mike wrote them, so I think we might play it this way. The way we played (Until I read this) was that the only way VTOLS could engage each other @ high was with ADS's. (ie The VTOL mounts a ADS) BTW the way this got rid of the problems of VTOLS doing all of what you mentioned. The first time I did it I shot down some 6 - 8 VTOLS until it was agreed that there was no rule forcing VTOLS to stay on the board & I couldn't hunt them down.

At this time (in our group) VTOLS appear and are used as follows.
*1 ADS VTOL @ High moving as quickly as possible to just outside the ADS range of the other enemy ADS VTOL.(Thus pinning each other)
*A number of VTOL's used as fast troop carriers & Pop-up Missile carriers (always @ low) A fad for a while was to mount DFG's and race up to REAL CLOSE and fire. I forgot why this is no longer used. I think some one found a way to stop it, either by rules or tactics, or we got boored.

Andrew Watt

CAN DISMOUNTED TROOPS MOVE AND FIRE ON THE SAME TURN THEY DISMOUNT?

Yes.

Mike Elliott

How about Drop troops?

Mark Maudley

If I'm not mistaken, when you drop/set the marker for drop troops, all elements must be placed around that marker in such a way that they begin out of unit integrity. The Unit's first activation must be to move elements into integrity distances before doing anything else. See Chapter 10/p. 43, 2nd column. 

Andrew Watt

The rules specify that a unit's first activation "must be to move its elements into integrity distance before it can do anything else."

Another rule on p. 23, under UNIT INTEGRITY, specifies that when a unit is out of Integrity, it is Disorganized, and it may make no move unless the move brings it back into Integrity.

I would interpret these to mean that a drop troop unit must use its first activation to MOVE ONLY, and specifically to move into integrity distance. This gives them a chance to organize themselves, look around, scout terrain, etc., unpack gear and otherwise prepare themselves on the battlefield after being dropped from several thousand feet, or from orbit.

Charging is right out, though I suppose you could make a case for firing if there is an immediate threat, at the END of their movement, provided that they are in Unit Integrity at the end of movement. 

Andrew Watt

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A DAMAGED VEHICLE IS STRUCK BY DIRECT FIRE A SECOND TIME, AND RECEIVES A DAMAGED RESULT AGAIN?

The 2nd DAMAGED result has no effect.

IS THERE ANY REASON WHY SIZE 2 OR 3 WALKERS SHOULD BE FORBIDDEN, AS THEY APPEAR TO BE IN THE SECTION ON WALKER DESIGN?

No. 8-)

Adam Delafield

I don't think they're forbidden, per se. Infantry walkers are always Class 1, however, and the real monsters, such as Battletech ones, are probably 4-5.  A lot really depends on the model/paper counter you're using to represent them.  But most mid-sized walkers (at least ones I've seen) are going to be significantly larger than an ordinary Class 3 tank.

Andrew Watt

DSII QandA Summary - Page 14