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(Message zen:90) Subj: [L5RINFO] Rules for 31 May 2000 From: Zen Faulkes <zfaulkes@PLANET.NET.AU> To: L5RINFO@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 22:50:37 +1000 X-Accept-Language: en -- /blue/homes/cowell/Mail/mhl.format -- Greetings, From: Ben Sanders <bensanders@X-STREAM.CO.UK> Subject: Fantastic Gardens (&Kosaten Shiro) > Is the cost of 5 consided to be a changed cost if you are playing > Crane? Speaking hypothetically, now (since anyone who *really* knows what the next Crane stronghold does, ain't tellin')... My initial (TENTATIVE!) ruling is to keep it simple: *Anything* that lets you pay something besides what's in the gold coin (or gray diamond) in the middle of the card is changing the cost of the card. But this could be *real* sticky, because there are a *LOT* of ways to say that something costs less than the number in the coin. Card text that says, "If Y, the cost is X" doesn't seem like a change. More like an alternate cost, for lack of a better phrase. Then there are cards that say they "If Y, the cost is X *less*." That *feels* more like a change -- but could just as easily be considered an alternate cost. At the *very* least, I want to have a good, long look through my spoiler lists to read some more card wordings before I even attempt to make a final ruling. I don't want a repeat of the Seppun Sensei situation. ;;;;; From: "R.A.Mackaij" <R.A.Mackaij@STUDENT.TUDELFT.NL> Subject: Master of Five > Im new to this list, so Im not sure if this has been asked before: Welcome aboard! It has; see Accumulated Rulings (URL below). > Way of the Void (f.e.) says 'The shugenja becomes an Adept of the > Void'. Is this considered a trait on the shugenja? Yes. > if I play it on say Seppun Kossori, her action to produce becomes a > void action that would count for Master of Five? And in the same line, > would playing it on Isawa Taeruko make her innate abilty count as both > a void and an earth action? Yes. Yes. ;;;;; From: "R.A.Mackaij" <R.A.Mackaij@STUDENT.TUDELFT.NL> Subject: Forgotten lesson > If an opponent used Hantei sensei's ability on say superiour tactics, > can I use it normally the turn I play Forgotten Lesson? Yes. > In case I can play the card mentioned by Hantei sensei by playing > Forgotten Lesson, what happens if this card happens to be a spell? Hantei only prevents cards from being put into play. You can use cards attached when it's not in effect. ;;;;; From: "Akodo Makoto, Lion Clan Cannibal" <AkodoMakoto@BOYUNG.COM> Subject: Re: Rules for 22-30 May 2000 [Re: Ryozo and cancelling / negating Favor] > Long standing ruling Zen, Test of Courage cancels the action, so Ryozo > stays. Confusion negates, so Ryozo goes. Um... yeah. I blame dealing with a week-long backlog. ;) As always, if I contradict something that Jeff Alexander says, ignore me. (Incidentall, I think my ruling is *right* -- traits should always be checked before actions are played, so Ryozo goes home -- but I'm not fussed about it enough to tussle with the Rules Junta about it.) ;;;;; From: saevene <saevene@GATEWAY.NET> Subject: Re: Rules for 22-30 May 2000 Incidentally, there is no good reason to quote my *entire one week rules post* to ask this question: > The Toturi's charter says the favor must be canceled. Confusion says > it negates the favor...I was under the impression that there was a > difference.... There is *now*. There wasn't when the card was released. There was a some talk on this list and elsewhere when Jade Edition came out about how much the TA Charter sucked, because Confusion at Court blew it up. In this case, established practice and historical considerations win out over hard and fast card wording. Until / unless Dave or Jeff overrules me, of course. ;;;;; From: Gordon O'Keefe <gordono@COREL.COM> Subject: Ambush + honour loss > Surely the honour loss happens before the battle begins? I don't have the Pearl Edition text to check the exact wording, and I think it's debatable in any case. I'll leave this one for Dave. ;;;;; From: Gordon O'Keefe <gordono@COREL.COM> Subject: A few more questions > Does The Phoenix is Reborn remove/cancel the Mo5 effect of creating a > new victory condition? Yes. > If Slaughter at the Imperial Court has resolved, and personalities > such as Kolat Servant or Bayushi Areru are already bowed to perform > their ability, is their ability still active the following turn, even > though they don't have the choice to remain bowed anymore? Yes. > You ruled recently that you may not Tactician under March of the > Alliance, as the ability is in the book and not on the card. If so, > how is it possible to Tactician with Kitsuki Kaagi's journal attached, > as if it does not count as an ability on the card, how can you > target that card to gain the force bonus? Using an ability (or trait, in this case) does not target. ;;;;; From: "Michael J. Watkins" <michael.watkins@LMCO.COM> Subject: Matsu Toki Q > Was Matsu Toki ever errata'd to be Lion or is he still just unaligned > and happens to have a Lion border? Correct as printed. ;;;;; From: Ferenci Stefan <a9505860@UNET.UNIVIE.AC.AT> Subject: Re: Matsu Toki Q > My understanding of the matter is that a unaligned personalitiy connot > be member of a major clan[.] Incorrect. "Unaligned" and a Clan alignment are not mutually exclusive. This is largely a historical accident of how L5R developed. ;;;;; From: Ferenci Stefan <a9505860@UNET.UNIVIE.AC.AT> Subject: the house and shadowlands(rules question) > I play the house of tao with earth ring > i play drawing out the darkness > one of my monks gains the shadowlands trait > do i lose my ring No. ;;;;; From: Darrin T Clough <dtclough@STUDENT.GC.MARICOPA.EDU> Subject: Sensei actions > Can actions on a Sensei be used if the stronghold it is attached to is > bowed? No. They're considered to be on the stronghold, and strongholds can't use actions when bowed. ;;;;; From: David Sachs <sachs@FNAL.GOV> Subject: Shadowlands - Blood Oath - Oath of Fealty > What happens of a Shadowlands player plays "Blood Oath" or "Oath of > Fealty". Can't do it. They're not allowed to use those actions (stronghold text). ;;;;; From: "Akodo Makoto, Lion Clan Cannibal" <AkodoMakoto@BOYUNG.COM> Subject: Re: Rokugani Economics 102 > What I want to know, is on Yoritomo Sensei, is the 1 gold restriction > absolute, or conditional. That is, it reduces cost by 1, to a minimum > of 1, is that minimum cost of 1 before, or after all other reductions? The minimum only applying to how cheap Yoritomo Sensei itself can make the holding. > It would appear that Kosaten Shiro's effect would combine with > Yoritomo Sensei's, such that Yoritomo would check it's requirement, > and then Kosaten Shiro's own effect would come into play, since the > controller may decide in which order two 'simultaneous' effect play > out. Again, *speaking hypothetically*, this would be an issue that would require a good, long, hard look at the *exact* card and stronghold wording before *any* ruling came down the pipe. ;;;;; From: Nathan Larsen <isawa_nate@HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: <No subject given> > Now, I read this card as stating the opposing units force versus > Ken'Os PERSONAL force, not counting the rest of the unit, considering > the subject of the sentence would be the Force. "Units with less force than Keno's are bowed." That's referring to his personal, private force, not that of his unit. ;;;;; From: Ronald Carlson <RonC202490@AOL.COM> Subject: Questions for a friend > Do the sensei's count towards family honor for determining who goes > first? Yes. > Can Seppun Toshiken Experience use his ability in battle as many times > as he wants? Yes. ;;;;; From: Vaughn Derderian <jst1vaughn@HOME.COM> Subject: A Rules Manifesto > Here's a few statements about the rules: > > 1. The rules for L5R should be a mostly static document that covers > most of the possible situations that could arise during a game. > > 2. A player should not have to have daily access to this list to be > able to play the game correctly. > > 3. An above average player should be able to figure out most rules > questions simply by looking at the cards in question and the rule > book, only checking for erratum as a last case option. > > In the last few months, all three of these statements have been proven > to be incorrect. [snip] > The rules for this game are starting to break down. We are starting to > reach a point in this game where cards are coming out that are > impossible to decipher, and we have to wait for an explanation of how > they actually work. I disagree. Are we in the midst of a crisis where players don't know how the cards, rules, and game works anymore? Absolutely not. I see the L5R rules have proved to be astonishingly *robust*. People -- especially experienced, devoted players -- tend to blow problems out of proportion. The recent "Is the Grey Crane a Crane personality?" thread was a perfect example. Yes, it pointed out that the rules are less that perfect in explaining clan alignment. But come on -- is clan alignment *that* confusing? Do we need a dramatic rules overhaul on clan alignment? I don't think so. What we needed was a one line addition to the Accumulated Rulings (I don't think this thread would have generated so many posts if I hadn't been away from e-mail for a week...). 99.999% of personalities cause no problem whatsoever. I've never had, or heard of, a new player who could not figure out who belonged to what clan. It's also worth noting that the Grey Crane thread was started and continued by experienced players, not newbies. The thread started because someone was looking for a possible rules loophole. Cool -- that's part of the game, and I have no intent to tell people "Don't do that." But! It is wrong to equate arguments over rules loopholes among experienced players (which I see a lot of) with real structural defects in the cards or the rules that profoundly confuse the majority of players, especially new players (I see very, *VERY* little of that). Are there more rules problems that a few years ago? I argue no -- not proportionately. (Because there are more players, more questions is a given.) Of course, it's hard to prove that contention, since memory fades and cheats, and nobody is really going to troll through 2-5 year old l5rinfo digests to see how the rules have evolved. Any recent rules conundrum that anyone will care to name, I can name you one just as big and hotly debated from the Clan Wars storyline. > Do you, the august members of this assembly, feel that the rules > should follow the three points listed above? Bah. That's like asking if people are in favour of clean air and healthy babies. Cut to the chase: Do anyone currently think they do NOT? ;;;;; From: Andrew Heckt <heckt@WIZARDS.COM> Subject: Re: A Rules Manifesto > I would add > 4) Rulings on cards should follow the story. No. I mean, yes. Okay, maybe. For the record: a little explanation of how I try to handle rulings. One of the things I've always admired (and try to emulate) about the folks handling the rules over the years -- D.J., Dave, Jeff, and Ryan -- is that they never got dogmatic about saying, "Ruling must be made according to these guidelines." They were all great pragmatists, and I try to follow in that tradition. Sometimes, rulings follow the story. Sometimes, rulings are made to follow card text exactly. Sometimes, rulings get made based on designer intention. Sometimes, other factors influence just how a ruling will come out. Stick to the middle path -- favouring no extremes. That's the secret. I'm sure Shinsei would agree. Zen Faulkes! * Crab Clan Scholar * Unaligned Rules Deputy Rulings Part 1: http://www.zdi.net/jwa/l5r Rulings Part 2: http://www.planet.net.au/~zfaulkes/o-ushi.html **************************************************************************** The L5R Home Page: http://www.wizards.com/L5R To unsubscribe from this list send mail to listserv@oracle.wizards.com with the line 'SIGNOFF L5RInfo' as the body of the message. Contents (c)1999 Wizards of the Coast, Inc. All rights reserved. |
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