(Message jeffa:274)
Subj: rules for July 21-24
From: Jeff Alexander <jwa0@earthlink.net>

  To: l5rinfo@frpg.com
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 23:11:30 PDT
X-Accept-Language: ja
-- /blue/homes/cowell/Mail/mhl.format --

>From: "Ray Daugherty" <raynalb@nycap.rr.com>
>Subject: Hosigeru question
>
>Can Asako Hosigeru perform his battle action if there are no opposing units
>(e.g. to perform the 3rd spell effect for a Ring of Air)?
>
>The two main points being debated were:
>1) He can because it's a blanket targetting effect not requiring a specific
>target, and the "opposing army" phrase is not used.
>
>2) He can't because any ranged attack requires a valid target.

     The correct reasoning is #1.  Yes.

;;;;;

>From: Edwin Eng <eeng@rocketmail.com>
>Subject: Q: Dueling Variable Chi
>
>I have a personality who wants to Iaijutsu Art another,
>but the Chi on the other is variable. Can I IA the
>personality, even if I do not know its Chi?

     If, for some reason, you are not allowed to know the Chi of
the target (like, say, he's in play face down somehow), ask your
opponent or an impartial observer whether playing the Art is
legal.

;;;;;

>From: Chris Hayes <Spanner@larrrrrd.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Q: Tetsubo challenge v Kakita Technique
>
>Active player I.Challenges using a guy with a Tetsubo. Opponent plays
>Kakita Technique. Which player one gets to Focus or Strike first?

     Whoever played Kakita Technique.  The Tetsubo's effect is a
trait, so it's always going to be in effect first.  That means
Kakita Technique will always go into effect last and change the
order to its way.

>Would it make a difference if the active player was the other way round
>(eg it was an I.Duel as action by defender)?

     No.

;;;;;

>From: "Jubal Kerchner-Pirrone" <komodo@global2000.net>
>Subject: Re: Ogoku...
>
><<snip>>
>(I just saw a multiplayer where a Naga attacked Ninja.. the ninja sent
>Ogoku, shadowwalked her with the berserker, cast "mist of illusion" on the
>berserker, and then killed the entire crab attacking army. Guy had a fit!)
><<snip>>
>
>I seem to recall a ruling about Shadowwalking Ogoku; as in, you can't.
>Jeff?

     You're right.  Ogoku's presence in an illegal army does not allow
you to move or otherwise place other units illegally into it.

     I didn't comment because I found this example very hard to follow
and I didn't want to muddy it further.  (Naga attacked, but the
attacking Crab army died?  Even after having 5F added to one of its
units?  Bizarre.  I'm obviously missing something.)

;;;;;

>From: "Len Blado" <lblado@snet.net>
>Subject: Re: Void Strike (ruling, Jeff)
>
>> This is the same as Yoshi. It's discarded at the end of the duel along
>> with the cards that were focused.
>
>        The question is: why?  The answer is in the Accumulated Rulings,
>but it doesn't make any sense.  Void Strike does not say to discard the
>card in any version.

     Here it is then, finally in print:  consider it errata.

;;;;;

>From: "Scott Schultz" <scott@ceweekly.com>
>Subject: RE: Makashi / Kanbe and Kihos
>
>David Freier wrote:
>>Since kihos first target the caster, and Makashi counts as a Monk,
>>therefore he can cast kihos.
>
>>Hope that clears up your confusion.
>
>Actually, the problem is that the official ruling creates
>the confusion. Makashi's ability is pretty clearly stated on
>his card.
>
>"Mantis Clan Samurai. Toturi's Army. Actions targeting Makashi affect him as
>though he were aligned to every clan."
>
>This says that actions (like Charge) that have clan-specific effects
>will affect him as if he is aligned to the clan in question.
>
>The section on Makashi in the accumulated rulings brings up some
>questions:
>
>1) What is an action? With a whole class of cards called "Actions" it
>seems reasonable to assume that these "Actions" are the ones in question.

     Nope.  "Action" and "action card" are NOT synonymous.

>I don't agree that attaching an item constitutes targeting Makashi with
>an action, but there's some grey area here. If it really meant things beyond
>Action cards, it should have explicitly mentioned items and followers on
>his card description.

     It also means things like Biting Steel.  The deal with attaching
cards counting as an action arose from entirely different rules
issues.

>2) Is someone affected by something just because he's targeted by it?
>Casting a kiho normally involves bowing one personality to affect
>a DIFFERENT personality. If an action card said "Bow a dragon clan
>personality to give a 3F bonus to a different dragon clan personality"
>then I would assume that Makashi could get the 3F (by virtue of his ability)
>but I wouldn't assume that he could be bowed by it. It seems to me that
>the "Bow a clan-specific-personality" clause of card is a cost to put the
>card into play, not a side-effect of the card.

     It is.

     Makashi's ruling is almost entirely a clarification of intent
that arises from the less-clear-than-anticipated wording that he got.
It carries vary little weight in a "cost vs. effect" or "affect
vs. target" argument.

;;;;;

>From: Gwohlgez <gwohlgez@csulb.edu>
>Subject: Cultist follower
>
>So what do you think...
>    To attach a spell to a shugenja it says there is a chi requirement,
>however, it does not say there is a chi requirement to cast a spell.
>If a Cultist, the follower that IS a "Shugenja",  is a attached to a
>shugenja with a spell, can the Cultist bow to produce the spell that is
>attached to the unit?

     No.  Only the shugenja that a spell is attached to may cast it.

;;;;;

>From: "Mark Wootton" <xsp49@dial.pipex.com>
>Subject: Trying to clarify Gen Con questions
>
>The big question seems to me whether or not the NSS second copying of
>Norikazu then is considered the same or a different effect, given that
>although it is a copy it is now the same 'effect' on the same card, and
>whilst the NSS does not remember, the player targeted does! How that
>relates to the 'no memory' clause I do not know. To be quite honest though
>I do not think it is a problem, you would have to do something pretty
>miraculous to survive long enough to get the combo going with one unique
>personality!

     Norikazu's ability, like Yoritomo Exp2's, is extremely potent.
Those restrictions are there with the sole (and fairly obvious, I
would think) purpose of keeping them from being multiplied or repeated
abusively.  The NSS/Norikazu combo *does not work*.

;;;;;

>From: Ian McGuigan <IMCGUIGA@mobius.com>
>Subject: RE: Contested Holding & Another Time
>
>> From:         Ray Daugherty[SMTP:raynalb@nycap.rr.com]
>> Sent:         Tuesday, July 20, 1999 1:14 PM
>> To:   l5rinfo
>> Subject:      Contested Holding & Another Time
>>
>> Question: If I play Contested Holding, and the duel is called off due to
>> Another Time, do I still get the holding?  At first I would have said no,
>> but the "Otherwise" clause seems to indicate I would, since I didn't lose
>> the duel.
>>
>> Contested Holding, actions, R, Dark Journey Home
>> Cost: 5, Focus: 2
>> Limited: Bow one of your Personalities and target a Holding in play to
>> claim
>> ownership of the Holding. This constitutes an open challenge from your
>> Personality. The Holding's controller can send an unbowed Personality to
>> accept the challenge. If you lose the ensuing duel, your Personality is
>> destroyed. Otherwise, the Holding bows and you gain control of it
>> permanently, but no Personalities are destroyed.
>>
>Another Time cancels the duel and all effects of the duel (stated on the
>card). The Contested Holding is canceled. It has no effect. Any card that is
>canceled is treated as if it (card that was canceled) was never played (see
>Accumulated Rulings).

     On the other hand, losing the holding isn't just a result of
losing the duel.  It's the result of anything other than a win, which
includes having the duel end half-way through or refusing the
challenge in the first place.  I've forwarded this to Dave.

;;;;;

>From: "Hida Kelly" <schizoid@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Two questions for JEFF or DAVE
>
>1. Lobbying for the Favor: Can you give a gift if you already have the
>highest family honor at the beginning of the attempt?
>
>(Example: I have 30 honor. My opponent has 0. I want to lobby and give a
>gift (just to get a card out of my hand) -- is this legal?)

     Only if you're stealing the Favor from someone else.  If you have
the highest honor AND the Favor is uncontrolled, no one can do any
gift-giving or bowing to add Personal Honor.  You just get the Favor.

>2. Facing your Devils + Pressure: If I cast Facing Your Devils and my
>opponent refuses by discarding sufficient a focus value's worth of cards,
>and then I Pressure -- does he get to pick up the discarded cards?

     Yes.

;;;;;

>From: "Jean-Marc PIERRE" <jmpierre@magic.fr>
>Subject: Tricky questions...
>
>Alexander-sama, Williams-sama,
>We have two tricky general questions to ask...
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Cancelling action et and cancelling effects:
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>According to the rulings:
>
>Attaching and Moving Cards
>"Attaching a card to a Personality is a Limited Action." [DW, l5rinfo,
>5/10/97]
>If the attaching action is cancelled, the card goes back to where it came
>from. [DW, email, 2/17/99]
>Cancelling
>An effect which is cancelled is considered not to have even been attempted,
>though no costs are refunded. [DW, l5rinfo, 12/1/97]
>When an action is cancelled, no costs are refunded. This includes, and is
>not necessarily limited to: gold, Fate cards, discarding the Favor, and
>bowing and/or destroying cards in play. If a card says "Do X to do Y", the X
>is probably a cost, though not always (example: honor loss is never a cost,
>except when necessary to prevent obvious infinites). And this should not be
>taken to imply there is never a cost if the card is phrased differently.
>
>Here comes the tricky question... Some "action-cancelling" cards are worded
>differently, and whether use "cancel the ACTION" or "cancel the EFFECT". For
>example:
>
>Ninja Tricks:
>Reaction: Bow one of your Ninja in a battle to cancel and negate the effects
>of any one Action card being played by another player during that battle.
>Lose 2 Honor.
>Way of the Shadow:
>Reaction: Play immediately after an action targets a Ninja card but before
>its effects are resolved.  The action is canceled and has all its effects
>negated.
>
>The more common expression is "cancel the effect", and there's no problem
>with it. But what happen exactly when the action itself is cancelled ? In
>the attaching section of the rulings, it is clear that when you cancel an
>attaching action, the follower or item goes back into your hand, but no cost
>is refunded (as specified in the cancelling section). So, "playing" the
>follower or item card is not a "cost".
>Does that mean that playing an action card (I mean showing the card, resolve
>its effects, putting it in the discard pile), is not a cost ?

     With Action Cards, the card is part of the cost.  With "permanent"-
type Fate cards, as with Personalities/Holdings, the card itself is not.

>By the way, in my opinion "cancel and negate" is redundant on Ninja tricks:
>if the effects of an action are cancelled, they are also negated. The
>difference is: "cancel"= the action has never happened, "negated"= the
>action has happened but has no effects, right ?

     Wrong.  "Cancel" and "negate" mean the same thing.  The
difference, when it matters, is between "cancel/negate the action" and
"cancel/negate the effects of the action".

>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Stand or Run:
>Battle: One of your unbowed samurai issues a challenge to an opposing
>Personality. If the challenge is refused, the opponent is sent home bowed. A
>bowed Personality may not refuse this challenge.
>Dragonfly Tattoo:
>Limited: Target one of your Personalities with the Tattooed trait but
>without a Dragonfly Tattoo. Until the end of the game, this Personality has
>a Dragonfly Tattoo and cannot be targeted with ranged attacks or effects
>that move him or her from battle to your fief.
>
>I've read somewhere that under Winter Warfare, a personality can refuse the
>duel of the Iron Fortress of the Daidoji without penalty, because "send home
>bowed and dishonored" is a simple whole effect.
>So, can a Dragonfly tattooed personality refuse a Stand or Run duel without
>bowing and/or without being sent home ? As it is worded, the personality
>"cannot be targeted... by effects", that is a bit confusing... According to
>me, this is the Stand or Run duel that targets the personality, not the
>"sent home bowed effect", because there is no "choice" of the personality
>involved in this effect since the duel as already been proposed.
>
>Thank you if you can make it clear for us...

     The Dragonfly Tattoo does not render its bearer untargettable
by effects which MIGHT send it home -- only those which do so
unconditionally.  If targetted by Stand or Run, he suffers the normal
penalties for refusing.

;;;;;

>From: "Doji Shoju" <dojishoju@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Regions now count as Holdings?
>
>Just a quick little thing. I just noticed in the pearl rule book that
>Regions are described as a holding that attaches you to province.
>No change on Regions status as what they count as, was said in the "rules
>update" section. Is this a typo, or did I miss something out of an earlier
>rules book?

     It's a typo and it's officially wrong.  (For those that truly
care, this error cropped up in Dark Journey Home.  It's just that no
one noticed it until Pearl.)

;;;;;

>From: Takezo1385@aol.com
>Subject: Rules Question (dave, jeff)
>
>Can't seem to find my rule books so here's my question
>
>When a person dies dishonorably you lose their printed honor correct?

     Correct.

>say I force of will a dishonored person he immediatly dies, suppose he has a
>4chi and normally 2 per. honor I'm assuming you'd still only lose the 2
>honor not the 4.

     Bingo.

>If I'm correct with that logic how does the following transpire, I have a
>person with high chi say 10 I force of will him, through whatever means
>proceed to kill him and use Kakita Shinjin the crane poet to gain his
>personal honor what do I gain his current honor or printed?

     Shijin doesn't say "base" or "printed", so you'd get his current
Personal Honor of 10.

>what if the chi/ honor switch affects something like an oni with 0 per.
>honor
>as he'd die instantly I'm not clear on if his personal honor would
>immediately switch back or if I can use the poets reaction to gain this new
>"high honor".

     In L5R, the destruction of a card does not prematurely cancel any
changes that have been made to that card.  The oni's stats are still
switched until the end of the turn, even in the dead pile.  The poet
would give you his new high honor.

>Lastly if a personality died dishonored can I shame them?

     You cannot normally target cards which are not in play.
Shame doesn't say it's immune to this rule, so, no, you can't.


                         ___________________________________
Jeff Alexander          ( Legend of the Five Rings FAQ site (O
Phoenix Clan Scribe      )    http://www.zdi.net/jwa/l5r     )
                        (___________________________________(O

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