(Message davew:1451)
Subj: Re: [L5RINFO] Still looking for answers [Zen, Dave] Warning - Long
From: David Williams <l5r@TSTONRAMP.COM>

  To: L5RINFO@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 14:20:45 PDT
-- /blue/homes/cowell/Mail/mhl.format --

>  >One of the things the sensei cards are NOT supposed to do is to
>  >directly speed up the game. The idea of seppun sensei allowing Liesx3
>  >is obviously something that goes against that ideal. (and no, I'm not
>  >saying that there aren't senseis that speed up the game... *please*
>  >let's not go there).
>
>[MW]
>:-) Well, I do appreciate that that is not what they are supposed to do. I
>am sure you equally appreciate that us players will always find ways to make
>the 'better' ones do exactly that. This has been proven.

Won't deny it. The simple truth of CCG design is that it is nearly
impossible to slow down the game by adding cards. The net effect of
adding cards is to speed up a game, since any combination can use a
slightly more appropriate card for a planned situation.

>So let me put in the correct 'Audit Trail' as I see you have responded.
>
>You do something that can generate a gain/loss
>
>1 Before anything happens the game conditions are checked in relation to
>that gain/loss (are you a Horde player, is As the Shadow Falls in play?).
>The Game condition has the potential to stop the gain/loss before it gets
>chance to exist.
>
>2 Assuming that game conditions do not preclude it, the gain/loss becomes
>  >your< potential gain/loss.
>
>3 Then you may react with redirecting effects. Unless Seppun Sensei is in
>play. In this case your gains and losses may not be messed with. As far as I
>can see, however, anything that reacts at this stage to prevent that
>gain/loss from happening can and will kick in (In Time of War etc.)

I'm with you so far. This is also the point at which the magnitude of
the gain/loss can occur.

In Time of War is an unusual beast - I think it fit in this step and
modifies the amount of honor your gain. Specifically, it *negates*
that honor gain/loss, so I don't think Seppun will affect it. (which
also means that it wouldn't matter whether it took effect here in
step 3 or back in step 1).

>4 If someone else redirects 'their' potential honour gain/loss with an
>effect it becomes 'your' loss and therefore can no longer be affected if you
>have Seppun.

Agreed.

>This is important. If there is an ownership of a 'potential' gain, and
>redirection changes the ownership of it, then all redirecting effects are
>altering the nature of an honour gain and therefore by definition are
>political. A political action is anything that modifies a gain and that
>would have to include the ownership of it.

Well, that depends on whether the definition of "change" included the
ownership or was only involving the magnitude. Still, I think I agree
that redirecting an honor gain or loss ought to be considered
political. Lemme check with the junta before making any permanent
rulings, though.

>[DW]
>  >Any Reaction that cancelled the honor loss completely would
>  >trump Seppun Sensei.
>  >
>  > If it is ruled that the favour does indeed cancel an honour
>  >loss, but that a Seppun player cannot use it as preventing something ever
>  >happening is still changing it, then by definition Seppun will trump As the
>  >Shadow Falls and other game conditions like Rise.
>  >
>  >How do you figure? The favor can't cancel a loss until it is in step
>  >2, and As the Shadow Falls and Rise from the Ashes are both step 1
>  >(game condition) effects and modify the loss or gain before it
>  >actually exists.
>
>[MW]
>Oh no! I sense another Rallying Cry coming on! This is the meat of it. If
>something is cancelled it effectively never happened.

Agreed.

>It is sort of
>retroactive, and therefore simulates the condition in section one. If I have
>Seppun and you Wind's Truth a loss to me and I use The Sun in Shadow, did
>the loss ever exist for me?

The loss existed up until you played Sun in Shadow. As soon as you
play Sun in Shadow, the loss NEVER existed for you.

It is similar to Ralying cry in that way...

>So why is the favour different? If I use the favour it
>effectively creates a 'game condition' where one specific loss cannot happen
>(like a reverse limited duration As the Shadow Falls).

I agree that use of the favor to cancel a loss means the loss never happened.

>In my humble opinion there is a massive difference between "cannot gain
>(full stop)" (prevented at the point of origination as stipulated by game
>effects like As the Shadow Falls) and "cannot gain more than" (as indicted
>by the almost identical wording on Yoshi and ItoW) that simply modifies
>(=changes) honour gains. If ItoW is trumped by Seppun then as far as I can
>see Yoshi has to be too. I can see no logic that would dictate that Seppun
>does not trump these cards. I can see no logic that it would trump one and
>not the other unless the phrase "cannot gain more than" and "cannot gain
>over" are considered functionally different. And let's face it they really
>aren't.

IMO, In Time of War is not trumped by Seppun. I still Yoshi as
different - I see Yoshi as creating a condition under which all honor
gains are reduced. In time of war can't modify the gain/loss until it
is owned, and is therefore specifically in step 3. That's the big
difference between the two.


----------------------------------------
David Williams
l5r@tstonramp.com
Lead Designer - Legend of the Five Rings CCG, Deadlands CCG
Alderac Entertainment Group

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