(Message davew:1425)
Subj: Re: [L5RINFO] Still looking for answers [Zen, Dave] Warning - Long
From: David Williams <l5r@TSTONRAMP.COM>

  To: L5RINFO@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 22:51:54 PDT
-- /blue/homes/cowell/Mail/mhl.format --

>One of the burning questions probably ought to be "Why is everyone so damn
>scared of giving honour decks a sensei that they can actually use?"

Actually, mark, I don't mean to be rude, but the question you
*actually* seem to be asking is "why is Dave so damn scared to give
robot honor-running decks a sensei that will speed it up". I would
add the word "my" before 'robot', but that's just an impression - I
don't have any real knowledge of what kind of decks you make.

Still, your point is only valid insomuch as we're talking about
STRAIGHT honor running. You certainly aren't suggesting that
Toshimoko sensei isn't useful for a dueling/honor deck or that Uji
sensei isn't useful for a defensive honor deck? Do they work with the
deck YOU (and this "you" isn't directed at mark, but rather at any
person reading this sentance) were intending to make? maybe and maybe
not. Doesn't make them bad cards or good cards. I have actually seen
*every* sensei used effectively in a game. If they don't do what YOU
(again, not mark specifically) want them to do... tough.

One of the things the sensei cards are NOT supposed to do is to
directly speed up the game. The idea of seppun sensei allowing Liesx3
is obviously something that goes against that ideal. (and no, I'm not
saying that there aren't senseis that speed up the game... *please*
let's not go there).

>It seems
>crazy that about the only use for Seppun is in a deck that can generate a
>lot of honour it its own limited phase and then cast Rise from the Ashes -
>so Phoenix Toju, arguably the strongest honour type, just got stronger, and
>Rise, one of the toughest cards in the game just found another use?

Again, you are making my point. SEPPUN SENSEI WAS NOT DESIGNED FOR
HONOR RUNNERS. That is *NOT* it's purpose in life. I'm sorry if you
believed otherwise and are now disappointed with the card, but that's
the truth of it.

>I apologise if I am coming across a bit severely.

And likewise, I'm not intending to go off on you specifically, here
Marc, even though I realize that this message is going to come across
as harsh. My apologies in advance (okay I'm in the middle of the
message, but there are enough timing issues here already...).

>OK let us assume that you do an action that, under normal circumstances,
>would produce a gain or loss.
>
>This is the 'audit trail' of that gain or loss, as I can understand it.
>
>1. Before anything happens the game conditions are checked in relation to
>that gain/loss (are you a Horde player, is As the Shadow Falls in effect, is
>Yoshi Sensei in play? BTW this ruling with Yoshi/Seppun is totally wrong as
>far as I can see but I'll get back to that later). The Game condition has
>the potential to stop the gain/loss before it gets chance to exist.

Yes.

>2. Assuming that game conditions do not preclude it, the trail now
>immediately gets complicated. The gain/loss now either
>a) becomes a 'potential' gain/loss i.e. as yet has no resolution or
>ownership (go to 3.)
>b) becomes >your< potential gain/loss as above (go to 4.)
>c) immediately gets added/subtracted to your family honour but can still be
>reacted to by certain cards (go to 5.)

B is correct. For those with the appropriate background, you could
look at an honor gain/loss as a Vector. It has direction and
magnitude. (see what happens when we get into the nitty-gritties of a
complicated game? Does anyone here think the phrase "Honor Vectors"
belongs in the rulebook?)

>4. If the answer is 2b) then you may react as in 3. Unless Seppun Sensei is
>in play. In this case your gains and losses may not be messed with. As far
>as I can see, however, anything that reacts at this stage to prevent that
>gain/loss from happening can and will kick in (In Time of War etc.).
>However, the question is if someone else redirects 'their' honour loss with
>an effect it either
>a) Becomes 'your' loss and therefore can no longer be affected because of
>Seppun or,
>b) remains 'theirs' and can be re-redirected until such time that all
>reactions have been resolved at which point the final ownership of the loss
>is resolved.
>This is important. If there is an ownership of a 'potential' gain and
>redirection changes the ownership of it, then all redirecting effects are
>altering the nature of an honour gain and therefore by definition are
>political. A political action is anything that modifies a gain and that
>would have to include the ownership of it.

I disagree. I think there is absolutely ownership of a potential gain
(otherwise how would the scorpions redirect it?), but that effects
such as time of War do not kick in until the final ownership has been
decided. Once the base value of the loss/gain has been determined in
step one, then you have to determine ownership in step 2 (here
refered to as step 4), and no modification of the loss/gain can occur
until final ownership is determined. At that point, people may REACT
(cue Jeff's ruling) and Seppun sensei sticks his head up to make sure
that all of the reactions are legitimate.

>OK step out of the trail here a second. Zen, your tentative ruling that the
>favour 'cancels' an honour loss means that you >can< favour an honour loss
>under Seppun. Cancel means that it never happened. Which means it was never
>changed, copied or redirected.

Agreed. Any Reaction that canceled the honor loss completely would
trump Seppun Sensei.

>Cancelled has this effect, as has been
>demonstrated by the rule on recycling cancelled kihos with the Shiba
>stronghold. If it is ruled that the favour does indeed cancel an honour
>loss, but that a Seppun player cannot use it as preventing something ever
>happening is still changing it, then by definition Seppun will trump As the
>Shadow Falls and other game conditions like Rise. If the favour only reduces
>the loss to zero then my previous supposition about being able to
>subsequently increase the loss must be true.

How do you figure? The favor can't cancel a loss until it is in step
2, and As the Shadow Falls and Rise from the Ashes are both step 1
(game condition) effects and modify the loss or gain before it
actually exists.

>6. This all suggests that there has to be a difference between an honour
>gain and a potential honour gain (or in other words there is something
>between generation and resolution).

Sure.

>So what about Yoshi? Well I have enormous difficulty in distinguishing
>between the phrase "...the player cannot gain over 1 honour." and the phrase
>".no player may gain more than 5 honour." on In Time of War.
>
>In my humble opinion there is a massive difference betweeen 'cannot gain
>(full stop)' and 'cannot gain more than'. One modifies the gains the other
>prevents them at source. Perhaps this is just the way I look at it, I don't
>know, I would be interested in how others see it.

Marc, you just contradicted yourself in consecutive paragraphs. In
the first paragraph you say you have difficulty distinguishing the
difference between the phrases in Yoshi Sensei and In Time of War.
Then in the next paragraph you say that in your opinion there is a
MASSIVE DIFFERENCE (emphasis mine) between the phrases on the two
cards.


----------------------------------------
David Williams
l5r@tstonramp.com
Lead Designer - Legend of the Five Rings CCG, Deadlands CCG
Alderac Entertainment Group

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